Ableton Aesthetics

Something I've been pondering lately in line with my Tech Sessions Vol.1 mix release ([url]http://blipswitch.net/node/])..

Ableton Aesthetics

Ableton Live software is arguably one of the most important developments in electronic music over the last decade. It has re-defined how countless users think of music, both in terms of production and performance. In my own case, this software has literally replaced just about every piece of hardware equipment in my recording studio, rendering them almost entirely useless. Among this list, sadly, are my turntables.
The practice of DJing as we know it is now undergoing a dramatic paradigm shift. Traditionally, we think of DJing as the linear transitioning from one piece of music to another to build a larger musical unit (the set). New developments, like Serato Scratch, have allowed DJs to access digital music formats while still allowing for control by turntable. Ableton Live, for those that are willing, challenges the linear model of traditional DJing. There are no longer any physical limitations on how many pieces of music you can commandeer for a “transition”—there aren’t any turntables, just an unlimited amount of channels for whatever audio you choose. Furthermore, the software has even brought the idea of the “transition” into question. If we are no longer limited by 2-3 turntables as a performance apparatus, why should we remain subscribed to their associated style of linear mixing? We are now dealing with the possibilities of large-scale collage.
In Tech Sessions vol.1, my recently finished mix being released by INgrooves, one is hard-pressed to find any moment when less than 3 individual pieces of music are not being layered together. There are even times when up to 6 pieces are being brought into the musical flow. Nevertheless, transitional thinking is still necessary. In the end, whether we are using one piece in its entirety or a composite of elements from a few different pieces, the artist still needs to be able to get from one section to another. The point is: we are no longer being forced to think about transitions on a track by track basis.
It is still important, however, that performers consider the particular demands that specific genres place on transitional capabilities. For example, minimal tracks are certainly capable of being dissected and stacked amongst up to 5-6 other pieces. Layering more than two Dubstep or Electro selections, however, would most likely result in an aural mess. Sometimes the “fast cut” methodology can be much more appropriate. In this sense, it is interesting to note how certain genres are perfectly suited to traditional DJ equipment. Why bother with Ableton Live if you’re spinning Hard House and specialize in fast cuts? Over the course of Tech Sessions, one will find that both the density (meaning the number of tracks being collaged) and mixing style will adjust based on what type of music is being brought into focus.
The mix begins with predominately minimal tracks and maintains this focus for some time. As a result, the density of the mix in this section is rather thick, with 3-5 pieces in constant circulation. Later on, around CD division 16, when the focus has shifted to GenderFix’s “Expect Sex,” a breaks track, less tracks are used, the “layering” approach is minimized (in favor of letting the track play on its own, unaltered), and the rate of transition is slowed considerably. The same can be said for the final sections of the mix when Hard Techno is brought into the forefront. Here, we see a perfect example of the “fast cut” style at work. In the second-to-last CD division, however, a different approach is used as a huge build-up of chaotic sound is generated. Yes, we are dealing with Hard Techno, but this is the end of the mix, and why not pull out all the stops? Seven tracks are brought in (many being pieces already used in other areas of the mix), and each are subject to extreme amounts of delay and reverb. The result is a chaotic web of intensity, which eventually subsides as we are carried through to the end by the beautiful deep synth washes of Rocha & Lewinger’s “Libelula.”
Another great advantage of the Ableton approach is the replicable nature of the performances. The screenshots I have provided on Blipswitch and in my blog are as close to a modern incarnation of “Sheet Music” for the Ableton performer as I can think of. Fans and experimenters, given access to the necessary pieces of music, can literally reconstruct these mixes for themselves using the Arrangement window data just as a pianist reads from a score at the piano. As a trained composer, I can also testify to the fact that when I’m working on these mixes, the feelings I get are remarkably similar to those I might have had when working on my first Chamber Symphony for example. The similarities are uncanny. Furthermore, this new approach has allowed me to bring many of the compositional techniques I have studied in the past to this new medium. In fact, I oftentimes describe this practice simply as “live composition.” The only difference is scale: instead of dealing with individual notes, we now are dealing with larger musical blocks in the form of already through-composed pieces.
In a recent blog I discussed the connections of Post-Modern art with Ableton Live mixes and the practice of DJing in general. The great Post-Modern literary figure John Barth wrote his novels as an exploration and re-interpretation of previous writer’s works and styles. The Sot-Weed Factor, for example, delves into the 18th century classic Tom Jones by Henry Fielding), Tech Sessions is similar in that it presents new experiences of these pieces as they are combined and juxtaposed among other tracks in the mix. I have become so fond of some of these collages in fact, that nowadays I often have difficulty hearing the individual pieces by themselves. I constantly find myself missing the drum-machine toms of Sigardino’s “Apufox” everytime the first breakdown of L3ktr0fuck3r’s “Hawaii Killer” is finished.
Albeit this practice is not entirely new. 20th century Italian composer Luciano Berio could be considered to have created the first “DJ mix” in his marvelous piece "Sinfonia." Berio’s piece is a symphonic work commissioned by Leonard Bernstein and the NY Philharmonic in the late sixties. It is literally a stringing together of quotations from other pieces of music. Just to name a few (and I mean a few), the piece quotes from Mahler, Ravel, Stravinsky, Schoenberg, and Brahms. It also includes a part for Narrator that includes text from Samuel Beckett and James Joyce among others. Of course, there is a great deal of original musical material involved, but it is essentially a collage-piece.
Richie Hawtin has also been exploring the possibilities of this new frontier in his DE9 mix series for some time. And this brings us to an important point: there is no one right way to do it. A comparison of Tech Sessions to one of Hawtin’s mixes shows just how personal these differences and practices can be. It is a true testament to the universality of Ableton Live software. In a room full of 10 different performers, you will inevitably find 10 different approaches, styles, and aesthetical biases.
But there will always be those who are quick to dismiss new developments in music (there always have been). “Laptop performances” are among the most controversial topics in the electronic music scene today. Not many people have a problem with producers doing “Live” performances with a notebook, but “DJing” with it? For some, this is a rather tall order. One objection I have heard time and time again is: “Well, Ableton keeps everything in time and makes it easy to mix things together. So what are you really doing up there?”
I would say, first of all, that, yes, Ableton Live does keep everything in time; we no longer have to deal with the pitch-control or beat matching. (Nevermind that we still have to spend hours warping/preparing the audio ahead of time) But is this really that important? Mind you, I’ve paid my dues on the decks for a long time now. What some need to realize is that, while beat matching certainly takes a great deal of practice and skill, it is still, for the most part, the mechanical aspect of DJing. There really isn’t much creativity involved in matching two tempos when you get down to it. In this sense, Live’s control of tempos actually enhances one’s creativity, for it frees up the performer’s concentration during a set so that they are able to shift their focus elsewhere. The second objection (that Live “makes it easy to mix”) is simply invalid. In a recent conversation, it was suggested that Ableton makes the use of EQ’s during a set unnecessary. I would argue that in this environment, the EQ’s become more important than ever. With 4-5 pieces being heard simultaneously, literally the only way to keep things from becoming a mess is by rigorous use of the EQ. Taking a look at the screenshots from Tech Sessions, one can see that the EQ controls are in almost constant fluctuation. This allows the performer to focus in on areas of the mix and ensure comprehensibility among the parts. Ableton Live places a whole new set of demands on the electronic performer.
We are now exploring a whole new frontier in music and staring the future of our art right in the face. Music has always tended to progress alongside technology. The piano changed the output and concentrations of composers considerably in the 18th century, the electric guitar was a revolution in itself. I believe Ableton Live will someday be viewed along these lines. Its revolutionary capabilities will almost certainly be embraced by the masses when the time comes. We live in a very exciting time and I suggest we take advantage!

I agree wholeheartedly.

I have no problem with people DJing in Live, as long as they are really taking advantage of the software and the fact that they don't have to beat match. I really do stress that people need to take advantage of the software though... if you are DJing in Live and just playing tracks without going all crazy on them, I think that's pretty half-assed. The whole point is that taking away the act of beatmatching should open tons of other windows and possibilities... live looping, playing tracks together that are pitched to be in the same key, boatloads of FX, extensive layering, etc.... and I enjoy hearing something that is original, unique, and involves a lot of creativity from the person playing it. I am willing to sacrifice watching someone beatmatch if it allows for them to be creative in other ways. The act of DJing with vinyl or Serato is always going to be the same thing no matter who you are watching (someone stringing tracks together seamlessly). I'm not saying I don't like conventional DJs or I don't respect what they do--shit, if you put me in front of 2 turntables I'd have absolutely no idea what to do because its something I've never attempted--the reason being that for me personally, it doesn't allow as much flexibility as I would want from playing music. If I got bitten by the DJ bug, I would definitely do it in Live. Technology has arrived that allows people to take the idea of DJing, completely tear it apart and sew it back together in a totally new way. And I see nothing wrong with that!

While I agree that you can get creative on the live set I still don't think thats djing...its more like ableton creationing :)

and its not nearly as bad ass to see people doing live mashups on decks.

dj p dmc champs

Now this is still totally pre-planned etc... which i'm going to get into... but to see this on a laptop... would just totally kill the experience for me... I love the looseness of this and how live it sounds and makes me feel... I probably wouldn't even watch the video. Maybe i'm comparing apples to oranges here...

Sure you don't get the 5 track channels... but can you seriously maintain that for 3 or 4 hours without torturous planning? If you can... well then i'd really love to see this.

I see two issues with most Ableton dj sets. I'm also looking at this from a pure aesthetic point of view. I enjoy watching people mix, I like seeing different displays techniques and skill.

1. You are removing the standard key instruments that people have connected with to djs. Decks and a mixer. Generally most people off the are still amazed that its possible to do what we do on these things. And it takes a little explaining for people to understand this.

On top of this... its still amazing what you can do and innovate on turntables, especially with a third deck and some effects. It's also really clear when the djs are working the levels and mix. Its great to hear some slight beat slippage... oops, i forgot there is a human behind the turntables! :)

With the computer-ableton thing... you've got this alien uc-33(or other midi controller) with tons of knobs all mapped differently for each dj. nobody can tell what your working on... or even manipulating the sound... "is that the track? or is that him actually tweaking that sound?" so many times and this goes with vinyl too... dj's pretend to turn knobs and make those crazy steam pipe sounds.. haha... but usually with decks you can pick up on that quickly. On the laptop sometmes even with a long time watching some of these guys its hard to see direct correlation to the mix and whats happening on the speakers.

2. Pre-planned sets... sure vinyl dj's can preplan their sets... but live djs(I've seen)... most have their sets Pre-built and planned... so whats going to happen when the party isn't as bangin... well... the live dj in this case could be fucked... the vinyl or serato dj could easily play and switch up styles to fit the party. Maybe there is another ableton dj set that you could load up? I don't know... haha..

ok... there it goes... so now that you can do all this cool complicated shit... I still have yet to see someone do a ableton dj performance that defeats a 3 deck + effects experience that previously hawtin, ben sims, carola and beyer used to do. oh but mills still does... :)

VIDEO: Jeff Mills on 3 decks
you could argue that his mixing is sloppy and loose... and a computer fixes all of that. but thats part of the magic and I will never forget that. I'd much rather hear a slightly missed beat than ableton overheating the laptop and glitching throughout the set. :)

I still don't understand the ableton dj stuff, i think the tracker dj stuff can be cool sure especially because its more versatile in terms of playlists... when i see it live and done well in a couple years i might change my mind... I think at the end of it all many of the djs these days aren't even working up to their potential on either mediums. I'm not sure what to make of it all. :)

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http://kirkwoodwest.com

I hear you. I like watching people play on both mediums. I hope my post didn't come across as saying DJs don't do anything interesting. I just think that DJing in Live is an equally acceptable way of playing if its done well.

christina wrote:
I hear you. I like watching people play on both mediums. I hope my post didn't come across as saying DJs don't do anything interesting. I just think that DJing in Live is an equally acceptable way of playing if its done well.

fully... but do think that djing in live is masked by the technology behind it? How do you evaluate a ableton dj set?

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http://kirkwoodwest.com

thanks jeff for bringing up some of the points i wanted to address.

i have 2 issues with ableton djing.

1. preplanning
nearly every time i have heard an ableton dj set the dj has been playing inappropriately for the energy of the party. either too mellow or too banging. figure out a way to have a SHITLOAD of tracks available (like diggler) so that you can work the crowd. imo this is the real art of djing. get a room full of people standing around to a room going apeshit in an hour and i dont care of your playing a victrola, you're a badass.

2. the relationship between digital assistance and enhanced creativity
as a traktor dj (i dont use scratch control) i have to tread carefully when discussing this. traktor speeds up the process of beatmatching, yet does not lock completely. without the knowing the fundamentals of beatmatching you will make a mess of things. still, the fact that i can load a track, get it matched, and dropped in all in a manner of a few bars frees me up to play with effects, eqs, loops, and song position. the addition of a master clock that you can match to makes the use of 4 decks simultaneously a manageable possibility.
live locks things completely (although i have still heard ableton djs "trainwreck", not exactly sure how thats possible)
live also gives you the ability to play as many things as you want, with as many effects as you want. with all of these possibilities, hearing someone play a set that could be done in traktor or on 2 technics just seems kinda lazy.

traktor done right: drumcell
live done right: acid circus

:shock: go droid!

really the tools aren't that important. its about the connection between you, your music, and the audience. if live helps you connect with the music and the audience better then go for it. i've just yet to see too many people pull it off :(

Kenneth... perfectly explained. Especially with your comment at the end.

Again, #1 This is the main issue that I've got with the live PA thing. It is something that I have always wanted to change and was on the verge of coming up with a solution... until last year when i realized it just wasn't going to happen with the current version of ableton live and the way I ultimatly want to have my sounds set up. (I don't use pre-recorded clips for most of the setup, only midi clips connected to large racks of VSTs)

I still will be constantly investigating this, as things do change, it is part of my model for playing live and evolving the way the sound is delivered to the audience. When I can load up new vsts and racks on the fly and have them automatically mapped to my midi controllers life will be golden.

as far as the beats becoming not matched in ableton... haha... that is because they beatmapped it wrong in the first place. but yeah... how can that happen?!

you hit the nail on people doing live p.a.'s right... acid circus = genius.

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http://kirkwoodwest.com

i like good music

Alland Byallo
Nightlight Music | [KONTROL] | Forward SF

allandbyallo wrote:
i like good music

+1 to that, and also to kenneth. it's been interesting to watch over the past 5 years how the vinyl vs. cd conversation has almost entirely gone away, only to be now replaced by the vinyl/cd vs. ableton conversation. except... it's still the same conversation and all the arguments are basically the same. this will always exist in some form. in the future it'll probably be djs who use ableton with old-school hardware controllers vs. djs who just wear the newfangled brain helmets.

there are two sides to djing and musicianship: input and output. as someone who sits on both sides of the fence, it seems to me that djs/producers are especially prone to getting very caught up in the input side of things, but that listeners/club-goers/fans care way more about output (and for a show, output is not just the audio -- it's also the connection with the audience, the physical performance, etc.).

i vote for output. at the end of the day there's good music and there's bad music, and there are infinitely many ways to make either one.

I think many of these are strong points. To reply to a few of them:

Pre-planned sets. This is a tough one, as there is somewhat of a paradigm shift involved here as well depending on what the performer is trying to do. I myself have done both kinds of sets over the last few months in Ableton. Sometimes I'll just load up 70 or so tracks in the window for the hour set and grab at things as needed. At other times, generally a week or so in advance of the performance I'll begin thinking about what I want to accomplish at this show. What new tracks are exciting to me right now? What new tracks are exciting to audiences from what I've seen lately? What sounds have people not heard enough of lately? What sounds have people heard too much of lately? I work to answer these questions in the course of planning the musical organization. In this sense, the performance becomes much more akin to writing a piece of music and then presenting it to your audience. Another thing I have done from time to time is plan a soft, medium, and hard set, and then load up whichever of them I feel most closely to at the moment. Which one of these is my heart really in right now? Which one of these will allow me to give my best performance for this audience? These last two approaches, I suppose, are more in line with a "rock show" methodology :shock: (or perhaps a performance at symphony hall if that makes you feel better.. :) ). I will also freely admit that it indicates a fair amount of ego and self-indulgence in the performer. (Though to a degree, all artistic output indicates this on one level or the other..) But I think if an artist has TRULY and honestly thought through a particular presentation of music with REAL goals in mind, and hopefully ones that aren't entirely self-serving, than it is certainly fair to feel comfortable and confident about presenting that work to an audience. It does require that the audience have some trust and respect in the artist's tastes and abilities, however. Hmm, to think of an example, if tomorrow Nikola (to use an EXTREME example :D) announced that he would only be doing pre-planned Ableton sets from now on. Well, first of all I would look like this for a minute :shock: , then a black hole might open up and... No :)... I would be excited. I might be a little saddened because I have such amazing memories of so many of Nikola's performances ON THE DECKS. But at the same time, I believe in Nik's tastes and abilities so much that it wouldn't make that much of a difference to me. In fact, I would relish the opportunity to see such a great musician experiment with a new approach, begin thinking through musical problems in advance, and go through the process of crafting a musical organization that is truly reflective of his artistic beliefs and goals. (This all goes without saying that one of Nik's greatest virtues is his ability to read a crowd and turn things on a dime if need be). But I certainly wouldn't mind lending an hour or two on the dancefloor to him to see what HE really wants to show me.. And in the end, this is what it comes down to anyway, you guys nailed it with the input/output argument. Is it about the performer, or about the crowd? Are we entertainers (let's realize that there's no need for a negative connotation there), or are we creators? Perhaps we can take a step further, I'm certainly willing to, and say that the day of the "creator" as performer has passed. After all the symphonic tradition and "rock show" tradition that I made mentioned of earlier are both constructs of the last millenia. Perhaps our task now is to make our musical presentations entirely malleable and versatile in order to obtain a greater level of interaction. In many ways this is in-line with the "2.0" culture we're developing in the world right now in general. I'm not sure, this is the grey area where we're all heading... In October I am going to begin doing "LIVE" sets for a bit, as I've finally amassed enough original material over the course of the year to do so. So I'll be able to explore this problem from a different angle. With 2-3 hours worth of broken-down material, can I maintain an original conception of my own while adapting it in-the-moment to the audience? I think so, but we will find out. I'm excited to continue exploring either way.

I was planning on expounding more on a few other issues that were raised, but I think I've written enough here for now (and I'm sure you've read enough as well!!). Maybe next week..

I'm still learning with every performance I do, as do we all. The problem is when that process stops and we get too comfortable. Regardless of the equipment in front of you, always push yourself to do your best work. I myself, especially as I begin experimenting with live/original material sets, will try to get my eyes more on the room in front of me, and less on my controller. Now if I can just figure out how to get the damn glare off the screen so I can actually see more than six feet in front me.... :)


DJ-Producer-Promoter
myspace.com/DJjrogers
jrogers.net

thats what im talkin about!

reminds me of a video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9DoJAnB9Nk

what if music had never made it to vinyl and that was the only medium. :)

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http://kirkwoodwest.com

That is so fucking hilarious. Definitely warranted a send-around to the DJs at my office. :lol: :lol: :lol:


DJ-Producer-Promoter
myspace.com/DJjrogers
jrogers.net

what is an appleton?

Mattie Bowen/Mossmoss | Racecarprod. | NLMX/Nightlight Music.
www.myspace.com/mattiemossmoss

Yeah I pretty much agree with Kenneth.

Tools are tools, just use the appropriate ones for the job you are doing. And maximize the full potential of the tool you are using. As long as the music sounds good, I could really give a fuck how you are doing it.

If you aren't using the tools to their full potential, I'd say that's a little boring and lazy.

A vinyl/cd set is refreshing these days, and I do appreciate the occasional "slightly-out-of-sync" mix.

I'm glad this thread got started because it has really made me think a lot about this subject over the last week or so. The discussion has challenged a lot of my ideas in this area, and reinforced others. (That's what this thing was built for!)

It's timing was also very interesting as I did the Klusterfuck show last week with VINYL! :shock: I actually ended up playing 4 cuts cause Moody didn't show. Doing this was a serious flashback to 1999-2004 for me. It was a serious reminder of the feel, ideology, and process of "deck-DJing" that I simply haven't been able to mentally simulate and re-visit during this discussion previously (though I tried).

In many senses I was relieved. To take one example, given some of our discussion here about audience interaction, I began to notice that "no, I don't look up at the crowd very much during Ableton sets." I believed the majority of this was because I was busy, I never stop moving during Ableton sets (well maybe to light a cigarette... :) ), and I began to think this was a serious deficiency in my performance technique that had been uncovered. But come Friday, with records under my hands instead of a controller, I had my eyes on the bar about 50% of the time. This was a refreshing reminder that, "no, I am not deficient in this department, nor was I ever when I used to play vinyl, the demands of my performance interface have just overtaken this area of my concentration."

I also noticed a much slower procession of activity. In the span of 20 minutes I played 4 pieces of music. Normally during an Ableton set, I blast through about 8-10. (Layered of course, I don't go back-forth-back-forth..) And though it might surprise some, each one of those dropped tracks requires the same process of bringing in a "deck-track". Appropriately bring up level, swap/adjust EQ settings with other layer-tracks, drop-in bass, whatever... I think there is a conception that Ableton performers just hit play over and over again on different tracks. Absolutely not (well not the good ones). I perform the routines of "traditional mixing" almost everytime something new comes in. The scale and regularity just changes.

Another important difference is how we view the pieces of music themselves by function. Are these pieces elemental and singular in purpose or full-functioning, self-sufficient units? During Ableton sets I strive for a layer-main-layer-main, or a layer-layer-main-layer-layer-main, approach. In the process I allow the "main" tracks to carry the musical flow, normally because of a particularly attractive bassline or beat, and then use the "layer" tracks to generate additional melodic, emotive, and/or rhythmic interest. These "layer" tracks are the kind that may be interesting, but just can't carry enough weight to keep the dancefloor going. We all know these ones. During a "deck-set" on the other hand, the performer is entirely dependent on the singular piece of music itself. Of course we have EQs at our disposal, and effects if we're lucky. But for the most part, the track on the speakers is the 'track on the speakers', at least for how long it takes us to beatmatch and bring in the next track (which is our only resource for structural control during a set). This calls on the DJ to have a much more rigorous and selective programming method. The "layer tracks" have to be left at home (unless you have that third turntable and the skills to run it..) But this also feels very much like a point discussed earlier on this thread. The focus of musical discourse has been shifted from the performer's will and intent to the producer's (whoever made the track being played).

Now this may be a deficiency uncovered, but I really don't like giving up my control of the musical process. It may just be my training (classically-trained composers are control-freaks on steroids), but it is also simply the musical model I have always subscribed to. Not just music, art. The artist creates, presents, the audience witnesses. Ahh... and then the audience reacts (say through the medium of the critics), and thus affects the next creation of the artist, and on and on we go.. Perhaps what we're dealing with here is the same process in micro-form. The 2008-2009 update of this model. Instead of the cycle taking about a year to turn around, the DJ can do it in 5 minutes by judging the audience/critic's reaction to a given track. Then again, the greatest of artistic minds throughout history have never taken the critics too seriously. Did Picasso really give a shit? Did Schoenberg? Did James Joyce? Did Beethoven? Certainly not. And furthermore, without their, let's just say it: "egotistical stubborness" (though some might call it faithful determination), there's no way we would be where we are today with art, we wouldn't be discussing this at all, this forum wouldn't even be here....

And I guess it all comes back to one of my original ideas presented here, which is "do you trust the performer? Are you willing to open YOUR mind to theirs?" And why not? if you are the average dancer out there, you have spent your life doing other things, that is the nature of specialization. (You're probably a much happier person too.. :wink: ) If someone has sacrificed their time to get to the booth, has poured that much time and effort into developing their musical prowess, then why not give them your open-minded attention? But that doesn't mean we can just reject the new possibilities that this new age's technology and cultural development give us.

...

Hmmm, this has once again returned to the circular problems looping in my head these last weeks all over again. I guess that's okay, in fact it's good. All artistic advances and innovations are created from an initial state of confusion. Out of the chaos we create order, and a new approach is uncovered. I am certainly exploring this grey area, and I know many of you are doing the same. At the end of the weekend I had convinced myself (after the Friday gig) that I was going to buy Traktor. The idea was that if I had a prime 11+ slot, I would do one of the hard-hitting fast-paced Ableton sets that I'm known for, and if I had an early slot, i would do a Traktor-scratch set of more subdued material and slower presentation. But I might wait just a little longer. I've got 2 more shows coming up this month so far, one early set, one prime. I'm going to try and integrate a lot of the challenged notions and new ideas this thread has generated for me during these performances, through the Ableton medium. It might work, it might not (playing slow in Ableton just doesn't feel right, perhaps lazy..). Who knows? You might find me with some vinyl under my hands once again in the early hours of the evening sometime soon... (I think it would be really cool if I saw some others do the reverse sometime soon as well......)

I'd love to hear more people weigh in on this. And I'd love to see the Production & Performance forum be as popular as the others. Honestly, this particular messageboard was the most important to me when Sean and I were planning for this thing. I could not be happier with the purpose it serves, though less frequently than I had hoped. It has already made a HUGE difference in how my musical thought has developed this year. So post more, if you've got an idea, speak up. Of course, then you'll have to deal with my long-winded ass, so.... :)


DJ-Producer-Promoter
myspace.com/DJjrogers
jrogers.net

hey joe, im hosting the upcoming future/now party up in chico with anna/sean. we are really excited about your visit! and not sure if you know but jason short is coming up too! should be fun. anyways, good discussion going on here, when i read the subject i thought it was gonna be about whether tracks produced in ableton had a certain obvious aesthetic. hah. anyways, just thought i would weigh in a bit.

i dj with vinyl/cds/ and sometimes serato. i produce in ableton but haven't really been drawn to djing with it yet. i still really enjoy djing with vinyl and cds. i like being kinda laid back or actively responding to the crowd with picking tracks. have never really got into using heavy effects etc... but maybe thats just being too lazy or not having the skill or opportunity to do it. :)

i think one of the biggest things that the whole laptop vs turntable/cd djing has brought to light is to question what makes a dj different from a "performer" or an "artist who is putting on a show". its an important difference i think especially since one of the historical hallmarks of being a dj was one who was a selector of other people's music. people would go out to hear a dj play solely for the ability to hear that type of music, as it was not readily available at home. it was the promotion and sharing of pre-made music. of course this evolved into some djs creating new forms of music, but the role of the dj as selektor remained primary. that is actually one of the reasons I first went out to raves and/or any underground music event with djs was to hear music i couldnt just get on the radio or figure out how to fine. now, all types and forms of music are so readily available digitally at any time of day, the role of the selekta has definitely lessened. so the role of the dj has evolved and i think there are just more options now!!! which in the end i think is a great thing.

i do feel like in this day in age, many djs seem to be aspiring more towards being a performer in their own right, rather than just being a dj. so you go out more to see a specific dj do their thing on the decks rather than just because of the style of music they play. there are also just a shit load more djs now :) maybe that is a good thing. and it seems if you want to make it in terms of making a living doing this, you better have some other thing going on rather than just being able to beat match and select some good music. in which case being able to do more layering and creative control on your set is paramount. ableton has allowed anything to be constructed and used on the fly to create new music as a dj. but i think once you are layering so many different pieces of other songs, it definitely becomes more of a collage artist who makes their OWN work, rather than solely just being something akin to a gallery/dj showcasing music they want to share.

anyways, just some thoughts here. in the end i think its true, it dont matter what you use as long as people are getting into it. but i do think there still is an important role of dj as just selektor. a great dj who knows how to work with a crowd, respond with selecting good music that is inspired and specifically OF THAT MOMENT, is pretty amazing to experience when done right. And i think those djs who spend a lot of time working a creative SET, with effects, original material and piecing together more tracks at one time are potentially not as capable of that type of response because of the work and complexity involved. They are just doing their show... showing their art. of course with programmable midi controllers and dope ass devices like the lemur, well that might change... :)